Interview: Inside Odds On

Daphna Attias on getting to grips with gambling 

Back in 2022 we were still coming out of the Covid pandemic and it was commonplace for theatre to have an online presence. It was in this limbo time of being both present and not present for a performance that Dante or Die Theatre occupied the space with an amazing hybrid production that bridged the divide. Odds On innovatively tackled the difficult topic of online gambling addiction through our screens by interactively connecting a human story with actual human actions. 

Now, a fascinating free pop-up event comes to London that invites visitors to see this extraordinary piece of work in a physical space and to understand its impact first hand through an accompanying exhibition. Inside Odds On has already been nominated for Best Creative Exhibition of the Year in the We Are Creative Awards, celebrating creative work in the Midlands, so we were delighted to chat with Creative Director Daphna Attias, Co-Artistic Director of Dante or Die, about what to expect.

Hi Daphna. Thanks so much for talking to us today. It’s brilliant to see how this unique production is evolving. Can you firstly talk about Odds On and how it came about?

The initial idea for Odds On came about before Covid. We intended to make a show in a betting shop, Terry (the co-artistic director of Dante or Die) came back from Ireland where he went to a betting shop with his dad. He said to me we should make a show in one of these spaces and I jumped on the idea thinking betting shops are somewhere I wouldn’t ever walk into, so of course we should make a show in one of them. Then the pandemic hit and we couldn’t make any live work. At the same time we were more aware than ever that the press was full of articles about the growing harm of online gambling. A lot of the gambling companies took advantage of the fact that many people were at home with more spare time and more screen time than they had before. We also discovered that the industry has a big focus on targeting women of a certain age, empty nesters, who might have a bit more spare cash and have a bit more spare time than they had before. A very telling fact is that one of the most profitable days for the gambling industry is Valentine’s Day. 

So we decided to continue our exploration of the screen as a site, the screen as a place we go to every day, and decided to create an interactive film that is set in a slot machine game. 

We made a conscience choice to make the main character an older woman who is a highly functioning person. She is a GP about to retire, a wife, a mother and a grandmother. She finds herself escaping into the world of online gambling game called ‘Pearls of Fortune’. And she is drowning in it. 

The interactive film toured across the UK to different theatres and went on winning awards and reaching lots of audiences in their own homes online. 

We were keen to bring the work to people outside of their home and outside of arts centres and that’s how the idea for this project came about. 

How did you research the project initially, and who was involved?

We worked for about a year with a group of people with lived experience of gambling harm. We met them every month and shared parts of the process with them. 

They helped us create the characters and world of the film: sometimes they would read drafts of the script and help us refine the characters; sometimes they would watch initial scenes we filmed. They also helped us create the support pack once the project came out as well as advocate for it, sit on panels and talk about the issue in order to raise awareness. 

One of the things they told us and a lot of the research points to is that (and this may be a big generalisation) mostly men play for the thrill of winning and women play to escape. We were keen to create a fictional world in the game/film to which the character could escape. She has an avatar of an octopus and she spends half her time in the real world and half her time as an animated octopus underwater.

We also worked with other support organisations such as the National Problem Gambling Clinic and GamCare. We spoke with many academics and researchers and interviewed people who work for gambling companies.  

After the film was created we were keen to do some more in depth work with it. This followed another year long project in partnership with Gordon Moody who have different residential rehab centres across the UK and we went into four of them over a year. We screened Odds On followed by a workshop led by our associate artist Fiona Watson (who plays Felicity in the film) and John Walsh who animated the film. The project resulted in a short animation film called Finding the Words. This film uses those people’s voices and stories about recovery. We screen that film in the shop unit for Inside Odds On as well. 

You’ve been touring the UK with Inside Odds On. As a site-specific company, what do you look for in venues to suit this production?

So many UK High Street shops are now empty and we wanted to utilise those empty spaces. We were keen to engage with audiences in a place where they may not expect to engage with the arts, and shopping centres attract many different people for different reasons so it has been interesting! 

What kind of people have been attending the exhibition on tour?

So far we toured the installation to Rochdale, Lincoln, Derby, and Harlow. In each location we were surprised by the unexpected connections, conversations and engagement we had with people who stumbled upon the installation.

We were keen to make the installation free for audiences to engage with. They can book a slot in advance or just walk in. Everywhere we toured to was different but the common thing is that many people share personal stories, mostly about affected others in their lives. Many people thanked us for raising awareness for such a hidden issue. 

Everywhere we tour we also curate talks, Q&A‘s and workshops with the community. So far these sessions have varied from open events for the community, workshops with police officers, with health services, with young students and with people with lived experience of the criminal justice system. 

Can you tell us a bit about the pop-up coming to London?

Inside Odds On will take place at the old Oliver Bonas store at the O2 Centre. It will be open every day from 12:00-20:00 and will be free to either book in advance or just walk in.  

The shop unit will look like a submerged underwater betting shop (themed like the game the main character of the film is playing). There are five slot machines in the store and five audience members at a time can interact with the film on those machines. The film is about 40 minutes long. It is captioned and is also available in an audio described version and a non-interactive version on request. 

In the installation we are also screening the short animation I mentioned, Finding the Words created by the amazing John Walsh Brannoch & Lee Greenaway for Dante Or Die with people in Gordon Moody residentials. There is also further information, resources and support available on site. 

We will also curate different public and private events in the shop so keep an eye on our website. 

Thanks so much to Daphna for taking the time to fill us in on this exciting new work which we’re really looking forward to seeing – watch this space for a forthcoming review.